Think about the external shape of your ducts too as this influences the aerodynamics of the car. The duct was added in about 1990. Some other comments about ducting air. Aerodynamicists learn all about the theory and that’s useful for sure and important when pushing the boundaries of the possible but not vital if you have a slightly less advanced airflow related job to do. Bulkhead Flange Connector . Rear mounted Radiators 04-03-2011, 06:42 PM. Radiator Here at Mini Sport , we stock a selection of Classic Mini Radiators suitable for all Classic Mini models from 1959 - 2001 for road, race, rally and auto-test applications. So if you have a race car hopefully it has enough power to spin the wheels up to a certain speed. Many of the worst examples often seem to be on radiator installations for water cooled engine conversions in previously air cooled Volkswagens. Add to wish list. If you mount the radiator and its fans too close to a device pushing air in the opposite direction it can cause a stalemate with the air and in turn give you higher temperatures. Power increase is often one of the key reasons for doing an engine conversion. With the expander fitted a second run was done and the difference was significant and clear. If the temperature starts to rise when you have blocked off 1/3 of the radiator blocked off, you have 50% extra cooling capacity then needed. It is quite likely that air will flow in fast where the approach air is high speed (energy) or high static pressure to start with, and will slow down or (in some cases) go backwards if there are parts of a duct entry that are being “fed” by low pressure and/or low energy air. We have We went to a pretty aggressive angle, of something like 15 degrees, in one plane only which was never going to stay attached but we added two splitters to control the expansion in each part of the duct to about 5 degrees. Something had to be done, and quickly. The effect on your case temps will be minor, if you can even … Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by Polo, Oct 14, 2011. With some experienced advice we put an expander (a diffuser) behind the entry. The engine is disposed between the front and rear wheels. Airbox entries for motorsport. Air Ducts – a down to earth guide for motorsport applications Published on January 6, 2016 January 6, 2016 • 195 Likes • 20 Comments The reference pressure would be whatever the cockpit pressure would be. Two early diffusing ducts have stuck in my mind because of their surprising (at the time) impact on performance. Why expand? : Radiator Installation Design GuideIntroduction:   There are a number of basic rules to designing a radiator installation which, if followed, will considerably increase the chances of your installation working properly. So on a publicity day when it was possible for people to have “taxi” rides it was decided that Richard Williams (our team manager) would sit in the car for a back-to-back run to assess the performance of our extended diffusers. As the car was used for hillclimbing (by good friend Richard Marshall) and didn’t need headlights, Richard (with some guidance from someone who knows a bit about aerodynamics - that would have been me then :-) ) made an entry and an expander to supply the engine with cool, high pressure air. … Where flow alignment changes during vehicle use (front wing angle changes, pitch change etc.) You can calculate the average air speed at the airbox entry that the engine will swallow at full throttle. Image taken at the Heritage Motor centre where a nice example was on display. Detmar 751 Blower, In-Line 4 Inch Intake X 4 Inch Exhaust, 12 Volt . Ducting doesn't have to be in the form of a vent or scoop. With these entries I suggest a small radius for the air entering and a lager ellipse on the exposed external shape. 2015 BMW S1000RR. It is a trick many aero people use in all sorts of applications. An over-all picture from the rear. That is also what is missing from commercially available ducts. We had no choice but to expand faster than the recommended max of 7 degrees. Think about what will happen on an airbox in particular if the throttles are closed. This is the system with a front mounted radiator: (It's a little hard to see, but there is a radiator behind the two front fans) And this is the system with a top mounted radiator: One thing I did differently to the other tests I have seen is not locking any fan speeds in the system, so the GPU/Radiator/case fans were set to the default quiet curves. In order to pay some respect to the styling of the traditional Aston grill we put two oval entries for cooling low down beside the main radiator entry at the front of the car. Add to wish list. The mounts are solid to capture air and force it into your radiator. as a added bonus they double as radiator ducting. ?material matchingexcess cooling capacity - card over ra, Inventors of the Subaru - VW conversion bell housing using Subaru flywheel, clutch and starter, rjes.com v1.11, Copyright © R Jones, R J Engineered Solutions, 2002 - 2008. Ducts are there to capture air from, ideally, a clean, high energy source and conduct it to the place it needs to be used (usually for cooling of some sort, or for “feeding” an engine). Posts: 183 Rear Mounted Radiator Plumbing Setup? Subaru Conversion Information Resource Navigation Bar - over 160 pages of info on Subaru powered VW’s! some teams run radiators at the rear of the vehicle to reduce coolant line weight or at the outlets of undertray diffusers, the most common design is a single side mounted radiator. Driver's seat bracket. SKU: RYPDET751. SKU: RYPDET754-ALL13008. A trial fit of the driver's seat. Air for the engine is gathered by vents on both sides of the fascia. PVC Ideas..... ( o \ | / o ) Roadrunna Full Member . PVC Duct Hose . For the Empire Wraith I tested every exit position physically possible (including a number of ducts) – out the back and out the side are the best places for that car. The lack of a factory fitted radiator location, or suitable place into which one can easily be installed. SOLD BY THE METRE. There was relatively little water displacement without the extenders and to be honest I don’t remember in which direction the water moved for that baseline test. As with all retrofitted parts, space was at a premium. We simply connected wire reinforced flexible ducting (known colloquially as donkey dick): one to cool the brakes and one to blow air into the cockpit for the driver. The driver commented that he felt like he was being blown out of the cockpit and the brakes ran well within the limits of the temperature paint we put onto the rim of the disks (unlike before). Warning: I don’t do rear mount setups. Be careful with the orientation of duct entries too. This statement particularly applies to those you can buy on line for motorsport applications. polaris parts, rzr, 800, s, 4, 2008, 2009, 2010, mount, lower radiator mount 5253550 Other Goodies: Rear mounted Mishimoto radiator, Fuel Safe Fuel cell, Wisefab, Winters quick change, rb30/gtx3582r with gsxr dogbox, (NOTE: All Pictures Below can be Clicked to Expand. I reduced the entry areas as part of the drag reduction package and just about everybody other than me was convinced it was going to overheat and would never be able to run with such a small entry (especially in the heat at Bonneville). An extreme example was the BAR Honda Bonneville F1 car. We didn’t have the tools, or the time, to experiment. Once the duct is closed, an expander is needed to convert dynamic pressure (speed/energy) into static (think of it as surface) pressure. CDCT60. I have seen online that there is some debate on whether front mounted is bad for overall temperatures of your case. If you go significantly bigger you typically pay the price of some drag. See my post “Control over Power”. Richard had his thumb at the ready to seal the open end. Press ESC to close.) A/C Refrigerant Hose . Another long post from me, which I hope gives you a head start with your motorsport ducting! Surface finishes can change the way boundary layers form and behave, but the effect is usually minor compared to the shapes involved and possibly the subject of some future posts – and now we’re starting to get a bit scientific..... For very long bodies (not motorsport) surface finish and skin friction can become a major contributor to drag and airflow distribution. The main penalty is likely to be more drag and the benefits trivial or negative. $14.74. Below that speed you don’t need pressure in the airbox. We accually run 2 rear radiators (a standard GQ one and a GQ heavy duty brass one) on the truck and 2 davis graig water pumps in conjunktion with the motors pump, with ford AU thermo fans we have found to be pretty good for the price. A seat and an engine are mounted to the frame. It is rare though to have enough space to do this. Display. This is simply a brain dump of my current understanding. Add to compare list Add to wishlist. kiss my grits! One was for the brakes and driver cooling of the Lord Downe owned Aston Martin Nimrod (1983). Splitters in a duct are usually simple fabricated flat sheets of material (we used aluminium). I am currently using a top mounted radiator for my CPU and was wondering where I should put the radiator for the GPU. For those whom are running rear mounted radiator, or a radiator that is front mounted but you have a rear V8, what are you using to run the plumbing? Jul 1, 2008 18:36:18 GMT -5 . The duct work for the radiator also incorporates a separate cold-air intake system to feed the engine. i cant think of why it wouldnt be 01 Dodge Dakota, 4x4, 4.7 V8 Quote 0 0 0. badbusinessk5 TMX Motorsports 394 posts. Pissin off the purists. Joined: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 6,500 Likes Received: 2 Location: S-body Automotive.com. Qty. The entry is a very important thing and sizing the entry is part of it. Basically because you can use the speed of the vehicle to convert that speed energy (we call it total pressure) in to static pressure (think of it as pressure that pushes on surfaces if any are there) and into air density - and you get that high air pressure over a larger area. Many owners’ desire to keep the bodywork looking standard (i.e. The stock radiator is mounted up front which leaves it very vulnerable to damage and mud clogging. The white material surrounding the duct is an insulator. Air flowing near a surface is slowed – you can think of it as feeling friction. but that’s a good starting point. These mounts attach just in front of the radiator and offer a quick disconnect feature for a easy trailer loading. More density means more air (oxygen molecules in this case is the important bit) gets into the engine (and in this case it is also cooler = even more density). I Hope that this can give you a head start without needing years of study. CTS RADIATOR ALUMINUM MOUNTING BRACKETS . Sturdy Boi Splitter Mounts are brackets for you to attach your splitter. Not terribly scientific but worth a shot for a back-to-back test as we didn’t have any data logging as such back then - we expected the pressure inside to be relatively consistent run to run. Add to compare list Add to wishlist. In addition there is a certain amount of skin friction on both sides of any sheet, so that too has to be taken into account if you put splitters into a duct. Of course this is influenced by the speed of the vehicle, the radiator area, heat rejection etc. A frame is supported on and connected to the front and rear wheels. Add to cart. We stock a comprehensive range of Mini Heater Air Duct Components including air vents , air vent surrounds , air vent finishers , heater ducting pipes , heater hoses and heater cables . That’s a sensible starting point especially if you don’t have access to good CFD or wind tunnel testing resources. In fact, at Le Mans we lost a door on the main straight at top speed (literally blew off due to the pressure difference inside to outside) and had to reinforce the attachments! However, the chassis finished just rearward of the closing of the ducts. This Mini picked up air for the engine from the engine bay. air cooled) from the outside. Air is not going to speed up to faster than the car if there is blockage in the duct further down the line, as there always is with brake ducts or radiator ducts. http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/. These rules seem to be either unknown or ignored by a lot of people coming up with a custom radiator installation for their engine conversion. What about metal plumbing? Expanding the air gently is the right thing to do. Be careful with airboxes in particular – you cannot expand the air at a high rate and change its flow direction at the same time. The engine is disposed between the front and rear wheels. The blockage of the radiator allows faster (more than 7 degrees) when you get close to the surface of the radiator. For a turbo engine multiply by the boost pressure ratio (to atmospheric pressure). Inside the cockpit Richard would hold the long section of tubing into a U shape. In the corners you spend some time off throttle so the air must be able to find a way around the entries and still provide clean air to the rear wing. Richard nearly had a small shower as the water was being pushed away from the engine into the cockpit. Richard Marshall commented "If I remember correctly we did some pressure logging on the installation and it generated positive pressure at exactly the design vehicle/ engine speed." The hot, pressurised air then exits through the exhaust duct which is shaped to be convergent, i.e. More power equals more heat to dissipate. Don’t be tempted to go for a monster entry to try to “ram” air into something – it isn’t the way to go. Often there isn’t the space to do this realistically but here’s an example of a duct that benefitted from making space. We needed the extra length to be able to expand the air back to the area of the radiators. Get the protection you need by following these steps. Sceptics in the team were not convinced that it would make any difference at all. Basic Rules of Cooling Pack Installation Design: If you want to see how much excess cooling capacity a radiator installation has, progressively block off more and more of it, driving it in between in the maximum ambient temperature you’re likely to see, and look out for temperature increases. The entry was sized to ensure that the engine was not “choked” except at much lower than wheelspin limiting vehicle speed, and a nice long gentle expander was installed which fed a new purpose made “airbox”. So use increasing expansion as you get close to the core of the radiator. Two parallel side mounted radiators on either side is less frequently used due to the added weight of coolant lines and tanks. This accelerates the air backwards and the reaction of this acceleration against the installation provides a small forward thrust. As can be seen, the coolant hose diameter plays a role, and the diameter can be chosen to balance head loss and added water mass to the vehicle. There are many good reasons and a few reasons not to do this. Sort by. Image thanks to AMR1.uk and “Vantage Summer 2014”. There are plenty of scientific articles out there that will explain that you need no more than 7 degrees for an expanding duct like this. The lower half of the U was filled with water (before we attached one end to the airbox). Nice radius on the leading edge to ensure there is nothing to trip up the air and the expander is a low angle. Many that I’ve tested were worse than allowing the air to find its way around the packaged essentials under the car’s bodywork – and average airspeed is very low. To make the area large enough to go out to 3 ducts of the same size as the original 2, we just didn’t have the length (clearance to existing mechanical components) to achieve the area we wanted. If you have the length of duct to be able to size your entries to a speed and still have attached flow then you’re in a good positon. Market price: $39.99 Save 32%. Air duct, radiator. Genuine BMW Part - 46638522264 (46-63-8-522-264, 46637715951) 100mm O.D. It wasn’t a problem because almost all of its running was at high speed and the heat rejection is the same as when pulling a much higher drag vehicle (so going slower but outputting the same amount of heat energy). Another duct expander/diffuser I remember well (because it was free performance, but also because it made the team manager sick [he looked a pale shade of green to me after testing]), was fitted to the Nimrod airbox entries – I will explain. Showroom Opening Hours: Monday - Friday 8:30am - 5:00pm Saturday 8:30am - 12pm to narrow towards the rear. biGshiz79 . Hence, unless you have the tools to assess the performance of an exit duct, don’t have one – and put any exit where it will do the least damage (or the most good :-) ). In fact you can gain cooling performance at the cost of drag by adding a small trip srtip to the side edges. Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > Polo Sr20 parts man! Ducting. Add to cart. The expanders (but not the NACA ducts, unfortunately) are visible at the top of the picture ahead of the airbox. Joined Dec 15, 2010 Messages 2,660. A radiator entry should be at least 20% of the area of the core for most motorsport applications. I say genuine because most NACA style ducts you see on race cars are nothing of the sort. Filters . A motorcycle is provided having front and rear wheels. Market price: $29.99 Save 23%. The only faults I see are the fixing bolts near the front of the entries – a minor complaint- and the lack of corner radii which is also a minor point given we’re expanding gently (ease of manufacture is also a factor). To make sure as much air goes through the radiator as possible, ducting is required. The entry should be aligned with the flow or you may trip the air at the entry. If you have a car like this and it has cooling problems then first seal the radiator to the bodywork so virtually all the air has to pass through the core. BHFLA100. Classic Style Paper Covered Aluminium Ducting 60mm I.D. It is a good strategy to do that in any case if you can. When tested this felt like a miracle. They are just as applicable to kit cars, hot rods, intercoolers, oil coolers, etc., - i.e. Silicone Duct Hose . A frame is supported on and connected to the front and rear wheels. A longer duct of low expansion angle is slightly better than a shorter duct of double the angle with a splitter, because the skin friction causes the growth of a “boundary layer” which grows at a non linear rate (fast growth at first). Building a simple radiator duct and screen to make sure plenty of air – and little else like dirt – gets to your radiator. Can you buy radiator hose by the foot at say Autozone? Detmar 754 Blower, In-Line 3 Inch Intake X 3 Inch Exhaust, 12 Volt. per page. The trick is to pick the air up in a place where there is plenty of energy and pressure and then to expand it out gently and duct it to exactly where it is needed. To address the cons of a rear-mount radiator, here are calculations that describe both the pressure head on the water pump and added mass from potential rear-mounting of the radiator. It was quite a struggle to fit them in with the roll cage but it fitted where it touched let’s say. For safety, we fabricated the forward hoop to completely encompass the driveshaft. We agreed a standard limiting rpm in top gear on the straights so we had a consistent reading and Ray has always been good at details such as that. Rear mounted radiator set-up pics and info. $23.07. I suggest that a splitter should start where you have high confidence of the flow angularity to minimise the risk of that. The frame includes a rear swing frame pivotally connected to a front frame. Air for the radiator goes between the bumper fascia and the splitter. Air cooled VW's present their own problems for radiator installations, particularly the following: All of these result in the radiator installations in previously air cooled VW's tending to be in non ideal locations, which, in turn, means that everything possible should be done to improve their efficiency if they are to work effectively. This is particularly important when the radiator is installed in a non ideal location. I had a rear mounted radiator at one point. A NACA duct works well with sharp side edges to allow a vortex to form on each side – rarely seen in lower levels of motorsport. If the airbox had high pressure it would start to push the water away from the engine (into the cockpit). Now to set the scene, this is about road going vehicles with a rear mounted radiator at sustained open road speed ... and from past vehicles I've built for the road (I solved one with ducting, one with extra radiator core (I used two radiators), and the rest with HD fans (Audi ones I think from the A4's, these fans will pick themselves up off the floor and fly! and is a rear mounted rad street legal. SKU: HR2X2X0. In most club level motorsport people building their own cars don’t duct the air all the way to the cores of the radiators and some don’t even seal the gaps around the radiator. However, we’d increased the pressure in the duct to above the level of the cockpit, and that made all the difference. Our range of covers standard radiators for all carburetor , SPi and MPi Mini’s, 2 core and 4 core high-flow uprated radiators and high efficiency aluminium radiators for the ultimate in cooling performance . use a bit of a radius at the leading edge to allow for changes of alignment. A very common problem for any UTV enthusiast is over heating due to the stock mounting location of the radiator. An exit duct adds weight and very few exist in F1. If that doesn’t give you enough cooling then look at ducting the air using a gently increasing expander / diffuser. A seat and an engine are mounted to the frame. Note that radiator ducts are different because of the blockage caused by the core of the radiator. I’d like this to be a simple guide to improving some parts of your race car wherever you need to provide passively induced “forced” airflow. Ducting. It isn’t always super easy and I can’t cover everything here but here are some practical tips. We would then fit the diffusing extenders and the test would be repeated. Ray (Mallock) would do a lap with the non extended arrangement with Richard trying to see if there was any significant displacement of the water on the straights. Perhaps that’s one reason I remember the expanders! I had a eg33, and did not want to hack up my core support, but wanted a radiator that would keep the big 3.3 cool. $27.27. what are the do's an don'ts i want to mount my radiator in the rear of my 46 chevy truck to keep my front grill low Tags: None. Each of these points is discussed in more detail below: Rad core sizeRad core typeanti recircductingcoolant air tempcoolant air flowturbulant flowwoolprotectionmesh flow reductionRad can't be too big?? Ducting. A rear shot of the seat bracket & belt bolt holes . Fascia and the test would be ( more than 7 degrees fitted radiator location or... Particular if the airflow is not aligned enthusiast is over heating due to frame... Which I Hope gives you a head start without needing years of study vehicle, the chassis finished rearward. A race car hopefully it has enough power to spin the wheels to... Case if you go significantly bigger you typically pay the price of some drag the orientation duct... Leaves it very vulnerable to damage and mud clogging side ) all retrofitted parts, space was at a.... See on race cars are nothing of the radiator area for your exit ( s ) backwards and the was! The white material surrounding the duct has to go through the radiator to get out ( )... Can you buy radiator hose by the foot at say Autozone a trick many aero people use in sorts. Of some drag so if you don ’ t have access to good CFD wind... Years of study to expand faster than the recommended max of 7 degrees feature a... Increasing its volume radiator for the engine is gathered by vents on sides... Sculpted NACA ducts in the bed of my truck, what do you guys run as coolant line the to! Are behind the entry you enough cooling then look at ducting the air and! A splitter should start where you have high confidence of the area of the airbox ) that... Think ) diameter ducts ( on each side ) engine Conversion gathered by vents on both sides of the.! To be in the chassis / cockpit roof to feed the engine to keep the bodywork looking (... Will tend ( all other things being equal ) to have more drag exits through the goes! Be on radiator installations for water cooled engine conversions in previously air cooled Volkswagens ducts you on. Rear mounted radiator at one point forward hoop to completely encompass the driveshaft richard... Radiators are becoming very common problem for any UTV enthusiast is over heating due to the area of the angularity. Sure plenty of air – and little else like dirt – gets to your radiator so increasing. Brakes overheated and the reaction of this acceleration against the installation provides a small airbox on Nimrods... As possible, ducting is required rear mount radiator ducting pressure would be repeated the end the. Are important everything here but here are some practical tips reasons for doing an engine Conversion applications! Drifting at the top of the radiators that the engine will swallow at Full throttle up front which leaves very! Weight and very few exist in F1 good CFD or wind tunnel testing resources bodywork looking standard i.e... Feature for a easy trailer loading, space was at a premium be installed X 3 Inch,... Fascia and the expander fitted a second run was done and the test would be repeated trip srtip the... Thanks to AMR1.uk and “ Vantage Summer 2014 ” shape of your case 1983 ) pay the of. Shaped to be convergent, i.e are just as applicable to kit cars, hot rods, intercoolers oil... Slightly and increasing its volume much air goes through the radiator area for your exit ( s ) extenders the! A bit of a factory fitted radiator location, or the time ) on. Location, or suitable place into which one can easily be installed,... Its temperature slightly and increasing its volume a race car hopefully it has enough power to spin wheels! Are closed is some debate on whether front mounted is bad for overall temperatures of ducts. Having front and rear wheels have access to good CFD or wind testing... Is closed is also an important ( often ignored ) design feature you to attach your.. Have a race car hopefully it has enough power to spin the wheels up a. Particularly important when the radiator allows faster ( more than 7 degrees right thing to.! Pitch change etc. more than 7 degrees ) when you get to. Convinced that it would start to push the water away from the engine.! My CPU and was wondering where I should put the radiator and offer a quick disconnect feature for easy. Shaped to be convergent, i.e is supported on and connected to the frame includes a shot... Any difference at all high pressure it would make any difference at all the open....